			    TRAVELLER Digest 404

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Capital of the Third Imperium (city)
	by Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>
  2) Re: Plasma Trails, Missiles
	by myhre@oslonett.no (StarWolf)
  3) Re: Human mass & volume
	by Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
  4) Regency colonization of the Wilds
	by Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>
  5) Re: Plasma Trails, Missiles
	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  6) Re: Plasma Trails, Missiles
	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  7) Design Concepts.
	by toad@ugcs.caltech.edu (Benjamin Lane)
  8) Future of the Imperium - Odds and Ends
	by mhclark@iastate.edu
  9) Re: Plasma Trails, Missiles
	by CyHiggin@aol.com
 10) Missile G-Turns
	by John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
 11) Re: Plasma Trails, Missiles
	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
 12) Re: Design Concepts.
	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
 13) RE: Challenge 77 in the UK
	by David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
 14) Re: Space Carrier Operations
	by lhowie@lrmi.com (Les Howie)
 15) Mertactor colony
	by chriscox@ix.netcom.com (Lawrence Christopher Cox)
 16) Re:  Political speculation: the Regency
	by Christopher_Griffen@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Sep 1995 16:59:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Capital of the Third Imperium (city)
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.950905165608.18050B-100000@hubble.sheridanc.on.ca>


While reading *Arrival Veangance*, I noticed that the letter from the 
Office of the Archduke came from "Giyachi, Mora, Spinward Marches."  Thus 
apparently making Giyachi the capital of the Doamin of Deneb, and 
probably the Regency.

My question: what was the capital city of the Third Imperium?

Anyone?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alvin Plummer
"Preserve what we created, Norris, and remember what we stood for."
                               - Strephon, 179-1126

Reply to: alvin.plummer@SHERIDANC.ON.CA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 23:16:52 +0200
From: myhre@oslonett.no (StarWolf)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Plasma Trails, Missiles
Message-ID: <199509052116.XAA15743@hasle.oslonett.no>

merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt) wrote:

>I'm confused about what you mean.  Are you saying in traveller missiles
>(impact type) won't work, or in real life?
In real world we don't have grav focused lasers. Thus useful range is 
limited to a few thousand kilometers. And we may neither see crafts move at 
several gees. We would probably never see a laser that would be able to 
punch through armor effectively, as the power requirements are large. Thus I 
believe missiles will be used in real life, but at a few 100 kilometers.


>As for the reaction time arguement, I just don't get it.  You have all
>the time in the world to react to them, but at those kind of ranges you
>can't lock or kill very many missiles in a turn.
Lets say I have a laser turret with 3 focus dishes with each about 1 meter 
in diameter. Each dish has 800 shots in 30 minutes. With this I could easily 
change target at least 3 times during a 30 minute round, and realistically 
even more. When targetting is just a matter of x and y axis this would be 
easy for the system. And several batteries of these things would stop a lot 
of missiles. Of course you need jammers, decoys and the famed kitchen sink 
:) to complete the missile defense shield.

The problem with missiles is that they travel in a straight line towards the 
target which are predictable. And the target just sees a dot that comes 
straight at them. If space had some sort of a horizon, the target would be 
in serious trouble. And other crafts in the formation (if there are any) can 
also help the target defending it self. Thats why fleets got escort with AAW 
capability. their sole purpose is to kill missiles before they reach the 
capital ships of the task force. 

And for a missile swarm to work, the rules must allow a launcher that can 
launch more than 1 missile a round. You need something like 1 missile every 
10 seconds. Or 180 missiles in 30 minutes. And still the swarm will be 
stretched out, unless you got multiple launchers.


--------------+-------------------+-----------------------------------
Roger Myhre   | myhre@oslonett.no | http://www.oslonett.no/home/myhre/
HIWGmember 142| Some people have one of those days, I got one of 
              | those lifes.
--------------+-------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: 05 Sep 1995 22:01:57 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Human mass & volume
Message-ID: <948961246.193284521@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca>

>Here's what I've come up with for antropomorphic robots.  Merrick was
>kind enough to reply that a human being (himself specifically) weighs
>about 6kg.

So Merrick weighs the same as a cat?

OK, you probably meant 60 kg, but I couldn't resist!


As to volume, I read somewhere (years ago) that the average human took up
about 2 cubic feet (if mashed do so there was no air pockets).  Assuming a
density of 1.0, this is 54 kg mass, so that's about right.  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Sep 1995 17:47:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Regency colonization of the Wilds
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.950905165907.18050C-100000@hubble.sheridanc.on.ca>


What follows is a very basic experiment in long-distance settlement, 
basically trying to estimate the cost of doing such a thing.   Comments 
welcome.  


Assumed: the Regency will colonize the Wilds (well, at least Corridor and 
Vland, possibly a lot more) in order to
  - solidify it's claim as the true successor to the Third Imperium, by 
holding it's territory
  - to provide a economic outlet for the Regency economy to utilize
  - (possibly) to relieve population pressure in Deneb sector (in the 
Guatney sector maps, the area is PACKED!)

Goals: we want to carry 1 million settlers and 3.5 million disp tons of 
       equipment to a site 120 parsecs from our staging area (a place like 
       Deneb or Antra, on the edge of the training Regency borders) to a 
       site 120 parsecs into exImperial territory.  (enough to go 
       roughly 10 parsecs into Antares, Core or Gusgemege sectors)

Additional information: 
    *  This operation will be spread out over a 7290 day period. 
       (Roughly 20 years)
    *  We will use jump2 Frontier Freighters as detailed in World Tamers 
       Handbook, stuffing their holds with either 712 disp tons of cargo or 
       with enough low berths to hold 712 people.
    *  We want to send out a settler convoy every 30 days

Financial notes: 
    *  To fill the cargo bays with low berths costs 35.6 MCr
    *  To fill the cargo bays with freight costs 2.848 MCr, at 4000 Cr/ton 
    *  A ship costs 520.24 MCr

Travel notes: 
    *  We spend 1 week in jump space, and 1 day refuelling.
       (I'm assuming that the route has already been charted by Regency 
       Scouts, or RQS ships.) 
    *  It will take 480 days to get from the staging area to the 
       settlement area, and another 480 days heading home.
    *  Assume that after the ships return home, we need to wait 30 days
       until we can send them out again.
    *  We must wait 990 days before we can start to reuse returning  
       ships, instead of sending out new ships.
 
Convoy breakdown:
    *  Each convoy carrys 4115 poeple and 14403 tons of cargo.
    *  Each convoy has 6 (actually 5.78) "Low Berth" ships and 20 
       (actually 20.23) "cargo" ships
    *  We need 858 Frontier Freighters (198 "Low Berth", 660 "Cargo") 
       ships before we can start reusing returning ships.  Cost: 
       446,365.92 MCr.
    *  Add 7048.8 MCr to outfit the "Low Berth" ships, and 140 000 MCr to 
       pay for cargo.
    *  Total 'bone basic' cost: 593, 414.72 MCr.

Not included: bases, starmercs, crew, lost ships, and a lot of non-core 
costs ('non-core', but can get real hefty real fast)

Therefore: for the price of a Trillion credit squadron, you can launch 
about 2 of these expeditions.

Aside: at a guess, 100 Regency citizens can afford to launch a private 
settlement expedition of this nature, using strictly income for one year 
to pay for it.

* * * * * * * *

Oh yes, and the Regency may choose to transport embryos, rather than 
people.  This involves lots of groundwork done previously, but may be 
much more efficent in the long run. 

* * * * * * * * 

And who would the Regency get to settle in the Wilds? (Excluding the unborn)
Well,first, who wouldn't want to settle in the Wilds?

A: Comfortable people (ruling out the population on high-tech worlds, 
possibly anything over TL C)

B: Those who have an irrational, absolute fear of Virus and renegade 
machinery

C: People who feel that the future's *here*, in the Regency, not *there*, 
in the corpse of the Imperium.

D: People who have a deep attachment to family: if the family's staying, 
so are they.  IF they leave, therre unlikely to see their family or old 
friends ever again.

E: People who would rather settle on half-a-loaf now than risk their necks 
for a full loaf later.

OK, now who are those crazys who *would* resettle in the Wilds?

A: Those who loved the old Imperium - both remmaints and patriots - would 
head to the Wilds to rebuild her again.

B: Poor people, trapped on overcrowded worlds with no economic future 
(Borlund, anyone?) would head out in droves

C: Vilani patriots would vounteer to head for Vland Sector - and Vland 
itself - to rebuild Vland civilization

D: The oddballs of Regency society would head out.

E: A LOT of reactionaries - both Noble and anti-psionic versions - would 
leave.

F: The usual semi-criminals, fortune-hunters and con men

G: The Regency may encourage military men to retire in the Wilds, using 
grants, etc.

H: The Regency may ecourage valuable scientists and technicians to head 
for the Wilds by cutting them deals for a percentage of a colony's 
profits, interest free loans, etc.

I: The Regency may encourage "people of substance" to settle in the 
Blasted Zone by sweetheart deals, granting noble titles (with old-style 
noble powers), etc.
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alvin Plummer
"Preserve what we created, Norris, and remember what we stood for."
                               - Strephon, 179-1126

Reply to: alvin.plummer@SHERIDANC.ON.CA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 16:03:34 -0600 (MDT)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Plasma Trails, Missiles
Message-ID: <9509052203.AA25962@Rt66.com>

The thread from hell continues :-)
 
Regarding  the real life vs. traveller:

For the point of this thread, grav focusing is the reality in question
(just so we don't get off the beaten track of stuff useful to others on
the TML---though I find reality interesting as well, personally). 
 
> The problem with missiles is that they travel in a straight line towards the 
> target which are predictable. And the target just sees a dot that comes 
> straight at them. If space had some sort of a horizon, the target would be 
> in serious trouble. And other crafts in the formation (if there are any) can 
> also help the target defending it self. Thats why fleets got escort with AAW 
> capability. their sole purpose is to kill missiles before they reach the 
> capital ships of the task force. 

Four points:

1.  They don't *have* to travel in a straight line, they could have some
evasive ability (which for game purposes would make them easier to dodge
since they'd be wasting gturns).

2.  There is a horizon of sorts:  the sensor detection horizon.  If the
missiles in question are coasting to the target, they are quiet and
small.  If we can make an aircraft with the radar cross section of a
smallish ball bearing, TL15 stealth must be decent (they have off the
shelf control of all forces at that point).  If the sensor is active,
then the target has a neon bulls eye on it for the MG that's sitting
undetected near that gas giant over there waiting for a fire control
lock :-)
 
3.  The "dot" target is still a target.  That means you have to design a
defense for it.  If KKMs don't exist, then ships won't be designed to
shoot them down.  If your ship can't shoot them down because all the
high TL cultures know that KKMs are too easy to kill, then my TL 10 KKMs
will cook your fleet.  I prefer to write the rules for their use such
that they can be defeated in a reasonable way, then they are an isssue
(albiet an easy one) to deal with.

4.  My question, however wasn't answered (maybe I wasn't clear):  Why is
a missile that is easy to shoot at inside 15,000km (as you say above)
easy to kill, when if the scales were smaller it wouldn't be?  Lets say
the scale is 1000km/hex and 1 minute turns.  A missile appears 10 hexes
away at the begining of the turn and will hit you this turn. You got to
shoot at it once last turn and missed. Now because it passed some
distance threshold (otherwise you'd hit everything 800 times) you get to
shoot at it a bunch and kill it.  You get 26 shots (800shots/1800
seconds).  What if there are 26 missiles?  will all your shots hit?
What if they are coming from different directions, now the laser has to
slew back and forth a lot, and you have only 2 seconds a target.  I
think it'd be easy to saturate.  And it's the same problem, I just
changed the scale.  Scale doesn't matter since you still have less than
a minute to deal with your problem.

> And for a missile swarm to work, the rules must allow a launcher that can 
> launch more than 1 missile a round. You need something like 1 missile every 
> 10 seconds. Or 180 missiles in 30 minutes. And still the swarm will be 
> stretched out, unless you got multiple launchers.
 
They can already.  A missile launcher can launch like 5 per turn with an
auto loader.  A missile bay would hold, and control about 36 missiles
(at TL15) (oh, and that's just a 50ton bay).  A capital ship would have
*hundreds* of 50 ton missile bays.  Some launched at you might be KKMs,
some are det lasers.  Unfortunately you don't know which is which.

If you assume that everyone knows that KKMs won't work you forget about
TLs that haven't figured it out yet---and will a TL10 ship be able to
stop a TL15 KKM, with TL15 stealth vs. TL10 sensors?  

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 18:29:27 -0600 (MDT)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Plasma Trails, Missiles
Message-ID: <9509060029.AA09173@Rt66.com>


Hey, regarding missiles being mixed (re:my last post), there's a nifty
idea.  You shoot 10,000 missiles at a BB (from, say, your Tigress BB).
Some 90% of them are cheap KKMs (1/25th the price of the detlasers).
The target has some finite number of missiles it can deal with in the
turn, so when the first opportunity to shoot at the arises, it'll shot
at some, the KKMs will continue past this point to be fired on again,
and again, but right now you don't know KKMs from det lasers.

So even as decoys they're nasty (and if you ignore them, you get
fried).

The detlasers will get through (well, some would anyway, but *more*
will).  And you still have to "waste" you defensive fire, 'cause one KKM
(at a decent closing velocity) can wreak your ship (although ESA works
pretty good here).

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 17:44:16 -0700
From: toad@ugcs.caltech.edu (Benjamin Lane)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Design Concepts.
Message-ID: <199509060044.RAA23722@frappe.ugcs.caltech.edu>

Hi all,
	I'm working on an idea for a TL-6 reuseable shuttle, and would
appreciate any input or suggestions...
	The design isn't finalized yet, but the preliminary calculations 
show that using a combination of turbofan, ramjet and LF rocket, and allowing
airborne refueling combined with drop tanks, it is possible to get about
0.64 G-hours of thrust from a design that nominally can carry 15 metric tons
into LEO. This is, according to FF&S (realistic thrusters, p. 71) enough to
reach orbit. However, I recall an article being published some years ago in
Challenge ( An article I would love to get a copy of, anyone? It was called
'One Small Step', I think) which gave a much more precise set of rules for 
determining orbital req's.
	The design is not unlike the old DynaSoar idea, and ends up being
something of a combination of the X-15 and SR-71. It turns out that there
is enough mass left over to use a STOL hypersonic airframe - which means 
that if you have a runway long enough for the aerial tanker, you're set to
get into orbit. Certainly a useful little thing for all those barely spacefaring worlds out there in the wilds. 
	And now the problems; 1) Drop tanks. In order to get off the ground 
using a rather small turbofan, the plane takes off with only enough fuel for 
30 min on the turbofan, carrying empty drop tanks with a capacity of 45 tons.
(I've had to bend the rule about a maximum weight in outboard sres of 35%)
2) Airborne refueling. The refueling has to take place above 800 kph, since 
the ramjet has to kick in as the plane gets heavier. ( current USAF ops are 
done at a somewhat slower speed, I imagine? 
3) The turbofan is used to augment thrust for the first 33% of the post-refueling burn. My argument is that this is the initial climb to high altitude ( 60-70
000 feet) Again, anyone who knows if this is a valid assumption, please let me
know.. 

Anyway, what do you think? Should I set up shop, or is it time to go back
to the old drawing board?

On another set of topics; Having just bought FF&S yesterday, I sat down 
and played with the very extensive rules for making guns.. not my normal 
area of interest, but certainly useful. I managed to make a 12L70 ETC 
Autocannon with a preposterous 25 Mj muzzle energy. using M1A2-style APFSDSDU
rounds the penetration is a silly 307 at medium range (1500m) Either there
is something I've missed, or the rule on page 109 of FF&S about multplying
muzzle energy by 2.5 for all ETC weapons is excessive. Oh, a typo above, 
that should be a 120L70, i.e. 12cm bore. If not, with a gun like this, why 
bother with messy expensive stuff like meson guns?

Finally, in making high-tech warships, can one use fuel tankage as additional
protection, or at the very least leave the fuel tanks less heavily armored than
the rest of the ship? THis would save considerable amounts of mass, and
it's just LHyd or even water, anyway. And if it was water (a very good form
of reaction mass) why not store it as ice? This would be a natural heat-sink,
reducing laser effectiveness, and an excellent radiation shield. 

I hope these ideas are inspirational, and if you have any input, please let
me know...

Cheers,

Ben Lane

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Sep 1995 20:10:44 CDT
From: mhclark@iastate.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Future of the Imperium - Odds and Ends
Message-ID: <9509060110.AA25505@class1.iastate.edu>

  I'm enjoying the discussion on the future of the Regency and all that - 
good ideas, Alvin and others.  I'd just like to add a few things to 
the pot:

1) Selling the Imperium to the Natives

  "You know, I hate to point this out, but it sure looks to me like a
certain interstellar government is a tool of a certain race which shall
remain nameless but has six limbs and is real sneaky (no, not the K'Kree -
I said sneaky).  If you enjoy being the tool of nameless conspiracies that
you'll never understand, by all means, make agreements with others.  On
the other hand, we Imperials allow you to determine your own destiny
democratically." 

  Hey, why not appeal to racial prejudice?  If psionics has a bad rep, 
Hivers must have one equally so.  I for one never like Hivers, and I 
doubt most RC citizens really trust them, despite their assistance.  Now, 
once the Imperium "finds" the evidence that the Hivers set off the 
Rebellion and the Virus as part of a really large-scale manipulation, 
well, Katy bar the door.


2) The RC and the "Good" Virus

  I have a hard time buying the whole "I love you, you love me, we're a
happy Virus family" trend in the RC.  The initial source material made it
seem that folks hated Virus with a passion.  Frankly, I'd be more
prejudiced against Virus if I was an RC citizen, having had ancestors and
family members die or seen Virus enslavement first hand, than if I was a
Regency citizen on Deneb, for whom the whole thing is rather abstract,
really.  "The only good Virus is an erased Virus" sounds like the RC 
party line to me, for sure.

  On the other hand, if the whole thing suits the Hiver's purposes (and 
it does), the RC will team up with Virus.  The Hivers get the RC as a 
client state to protect them from those naughty Imperials, who are no 
doubt even now building psionic machines that can read even a Hiver's mind...


3) Grandfather

  This to me has always been the most problematic part of Traveller, and 
I'm not alone - don't have my files here in Iowa with me, but I remember 
a GDW response to questions about the Black Curtain being answered along 
the lines of "We screwed up when we gave too much deatil about the Ancients 
and we're not making that mistake again."  Who knows what Grandfather 
will do?  Frankly, I hope GDW just keeps him hidden.

  For those who might be interested, I have my own personal spin on 
Grandfather and his behavior.  From my point of view, Grandfather's 
explanation of his origins and the final war just don't ring true.  In my 
universe, Grandfather is not a Droyne, but a very sophisticated droynoid 
(a Droyne android, of course).  This explains his lack of ageing and 
super-droyne intelligence.  He was put in this part of the galaxy by 
the Primordials (no, not the Digest Group's "Honeybuns From Space," thanks 
for asking) as an anthopologist/observer to watch the development of the 
Doyne race over a long time span (hundreds of thousands of years).  Well, 
Grandfather malfuctioned, or maybe he just got bored, so he upped the 
Doyne tech level, and, well, things got a little out of hand. 

  So, why did Grandfather kill off all the kids and hide in his pocket
universe?  Simple, really - he found out who the Primordials are, and that
they're coming back.  The war against his Children was just a way of
cleaning things up before his parents got home.  He's hoping he'll be
overlooked when they get back and that if they do find him, if they have a
chance to look around beforehand, they'll see he tried to put things back
the way they were and forgive him. 

  Who are the Primordials?  Well, I have a rather Humaniti-centered 
outlook, so they are - surprise, surprise - humans.  Very odd, very high 
tech, but very, very human.  They'll stop by for a bit, chat, and move on 
- how much time would you want to spend with your ancestors from 200,000 
years?  Thought it would be fun for laughs, especially when Grandfather 
gets his, and it does make things a bit more logical.

---
Mark H Clark
mhclark@iastate.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 22:24:25 -0400
From: CyHiggin@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Plasma Trails, Missiles
Message-ID: <950905222424_92029700@mail06.mail.aol.com>

From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)

>At the ranges where killing the missiles gets easy, the missile is only .75 
>minutes away and going *very* fast.  I don't see what difference the scale
makes
>in this regard since in the BL scale, any missile, regardless of type has to
>close within a range that I think we would both agree taxes the defensive 
>capabilities of the target in the way you describe above.

Reality-check time: for comparison, someone want to look up the performance
of the U.S. Navy's CIWS (Close-In Weapon System), aka Mk 15 Phalanx? It
is an autonomous point-defense system that has a very, very high kill rate 
(much higher than the 95% the TNE rules limit you to...) and
is capable of tracking a great many targets (someone look up how many) very
quickly. ONE (1) missile is breakfast food to CIWS!  And this is at many
factors
closer range and shorter response time than the space combat you say "would
tax the defensive capabilities of the target"  
And that's at TL8, right now, Real World.  It's one of the things that 
defends U.S. carriers from junk like Exocet missiles...

                                                      --Cynthia


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 22:15:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Missile G-Turns
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9509052215.A7483-0100000@uclink.berkeley.edu>

	Merrick, I believe you asked if anyone could get the FF&S 
missiles' G-turns to come out right when reverse engineered.  I tried it, 
and it comes out, but only if you use the corrected EaPLAC fuel 
consumption as posted to this list by Loren back around the time Striker 
II came out.  Change FC from .225 to .3 and the G-turns work out fine -- 
or at least close enough for Imperial work :)

	--Muir

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 23:23:09 -0600 (MDT)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Plasma Trails, Missiles
Message-ID: <9509060523.AA29347@Rt66.com>

Greetings,
 
> From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
> >At the ranges where killing the missiles gets easy, the missile is only .75 
> >minutes away and going *very* fast.  I don't see what difference the scale
> makes
> >in this regard since in the BL scale, any missile, regardless of type has to
> >close within a range that I think we would both agree taxes the defensive 
> >capabilities of the target in the way you describe above.
> 
> Reality-check time: for comparison, someone want to look up the performance
> of the U.S. Navy's CIWS (Close-In Weapon System), aka Mk 15 Phalanx? It
> is an autonomous point-defense system that has a very, very high kill rate 
> (much higher than the 95% the TNE rules limit you to...) and
> is capable of tracking a great many targets (someone look up how many) very
> quickly. ONE (1) missile is breakfast food to CIWS!  And this is at many
> factors
> closer range and shorter response time than the space combat you say "would
> tax the defensive capabilities of the target"  
> And that's at TL8, right now, Real World.  It's one of the things that 
> defends U.S. carriers from junk like Exocet missiles...
> 
>                                                       --Cynthia
 
Cool.  I didn't know US carrier task forces were immune to attack, that
makes me feel much better about their deployment in dangerous areas.
;-)

If the real world acted like the space combat rules in BL, then we could
un-install these devices having developed them and still be protected.
No one who considered fighting us ever made anti-shipping missiles after
the CIWS I assume, since it would be pointless.

I said tax the defensive systems, not overcome (although that is
possible).  And the point about defensive systems I was trying to make
is that they have to exist!  I know you're not arguing that if no ships
carry such equipment they'll still be immune to attack.  

But GDW seems to think so since even an empty hulk in a stable orbit can 
defeat an infinite number of attacking missiles (so long as they cooperate 
and don't detonate as nuke pumped xray lasers).

Regarding the 95% max %, remember that that is _per attack_.  By making
multiple attacks possible, you can get that higher (so long as you don't
saturate the system).  The major difference I see is that a CIWS system
on a traveller BB has problems that don't exist in real life right now.

More targets.  A lot more.  A typical BB would launch thousands of
missiles at once, and they'd arrive within seconds of each other.

The solution?  Hundreds of CIWS!  

New problem:  they all have to talk to each other to coordinate attack.
Autonomous systems are fine in a zone defense, but if you have more than
one defending an area they have to share information. Otherwise they might 
all decide the second missile to the left is *the* major threat, and shoot 
first.  They just wasted 299 out of 300 shots that time unit.  Even in 
traveller at TL 15 the CIWS on either end of the ship can only communicate 
at c.  Commo lag between these remote systems will drag the whole thing down 
a few notches.  A buddy of mine at the lab was working on just such a problem 
for SDIO.  He told me over a beer that you could "give him 100 phasers" and 
they'd have trouble killing the missiles.  To the point he thought the killing 
was easy, and the fire control was an unsolvable nightmare (this was 
space-based in part) due to commo lag.

We have weapons (lasers) which serve this as well as anti-shipping
roles, and we could even have them attack 800 targets if they're beefed
up---although this might make us wonder why we can't shoot this way at
other targets.  Post virus ships won't be good at coordinating defense vs. many
missiles, but for many uses, KKMs won't make it through.  My only point
through this is to make the missiles, then install the stuff to trash
'em.  This takes volume away from other weapons and fuel.  Balance
returns.  That was the point, fix the rules so those exceptions (like
Free Traders) might have to think about it.  Right now any traveller
ship with a laser has a perfect CIWS.  One scout hovering over a TL8
battlefield could shoot all the arty down and miss nothing---there's
balance for you ;-)

I'd like any info anyone has on CIWS systems (the russians have one, and
I remember one called "Goalkeeper" as well).  Of course these systems
all rely on high ROFs (about 6 times the best directed energy weapon in
traveller) to kill.

Personally, I think that coordination combined with slewing the laser
will be the major problems (what if the missiles come from a multitude
of closing angles?).  And they will still be dispersing submunitions at
very long ranges by autogun standards (100s to around 1000km).

The missiles can exist (they exist now), so the rules fix/clarification
needs to be on the defenses.

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 00:00:35 -0600 (MDT)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Design Concepts.
Message-ID: <9509060600.AA01534@Rt66.com>

 
> Hi all,

Howdy.

> 	I'm working on an idea for a TL-6 reuseable shuttle, and would
> appreciate any input or suggestions...
 
Cynthia posted some useful notes on this a while back (including her
fixes to the screwed up FFS bits).  If you can't find 'em, let me know
(I'm sure I saved them someplace) and I'll send them to you.

As an example of their screw up, check out the figures on delta v to
orbit for a terra sized world.  1.28 gturns to orbit is more than escape
velocity for the earth (by a ways)---even assuming that you circularize
the orbit after achieving it that is way too high.  A typical delta v
budget for LEO is a little over 8km/s.  To the moon's surface, it's
almost 14km/s, and Mars is between 16 and 17 km/s. 

> Finally, in making high-tech warships, can one use fuel tankage as additional
> protection, or at the very least leave the fuel tanks less heavily armored than
> the rest of the ship? THis would save considerable amounts of mass, and
> it's just LHyd or even water, anyway. And if it was water (a very good form
> of reaction mass) why not store it as ice? This would be a natural heat-sink,
> reducing laser effectiveness, and an excellent radiation shield. 
 
Sure, if it doesn't say you can't :-)  There will have to be surface
features so , you'll get blinded first, but then again, you would
anyway.  You can armor the weapons to protect them better.  If you play
BL a few times you'll find out just how many fuel hits you get ( a lot).
You'd have to fudge the internal damage tables so all hits go to fuel
first.

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Sep 95 13:25:00 PDT
From: David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
To: "traveller%mpgn.com" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: RE: Challenge 77 in the UK
Message-ID: <304E0387@pc136>



E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK asked:

> By the way, have any UKers seen Challenge 77 on the shelves yet?

Yes, I got mine at the weekend. Try phoning Leisure Games in Finchley on 
0181-346-2327. Tell them Dave Elrick told you.

If you have a credit card, you can have them set up a subscription where 
they send you the issues as they come out and bill your credit card every 
time the total exceeds about L10.

Alternatively, your local stockist should have it real soon now.

Dave Elrick

 -----------------------------------------------------------------
Finally, let's lay one common myth to a long-overdue rest. After three 
hundred thousand years of evolution Vargr no longer stick their heads out of 
the window when they're driving.

Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk
 ---------------------------------------------------------------



Eamon Watters, CNG0016@v2.qub.ac.uk.


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Sep 1995 09:57:26 -0300
From: lhowie@lrmi.com (Les Howie)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Space Carrier Operations
Message-ID: <9509061249.AA03197@ lrmi.com>

stedee@auto-trol.com (Steve Deemer) wrote
>Landing
>on a floating carrier moving at a fraction of your speed, fighting gravity,
>wind, weather, the sea, this seems to be an almost impossible task in
>comparision.
>
The real payoff cmes when you have a damaged fighter to recover.  An
aircraft HAS to land.  A spacecraft?  "..Just shut down your engines, we
will dispatch a search and rescue tug to bring you in"
Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
Atlantic LRMI


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 08:00:12 -0700
From: chriscox@ix.netcom.com (Lawrence Christopher Cox)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Mertactor colony
Message-ID: <199509061500.IAA06388@ix4.ix.netcom.com>

Hans Rancke wrote:
"... But we keep forgetting those settlement pattern maps where 
Mertactor is shown as being settled before 300 ..."

The settlement maps in Supplement 11 and the Traveller Adventure have  
a date of c. 300, or circa 300. Which would mean that if Mertactor was 
settled in 305 it would be on the map.

Chris Cox
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 10:28:33 -0700
From: Christopher_Griffen@dmcwave.com (Christopher Griffen)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re:  Political speculation: the Regency
Message-ID: <04dda480@MailXFER.DMCWAVE.COM>

     Responding to Alvin Plummer's detailed analysis of the Regency and the 
     future:
     
     >>And, of course, the RC will take an instant dislike to the Regency-a 
     loathing that will be returned with interest.  The Sector Governour 
     (or the Sector Duke - the Wilds are better ruled by decree than by 
     votes) is going to have his hands full, dealing with the locals and 
     interfering RC agents.<<
     
     As is indicated by the 1206 comments of RQS Commodore Roland Zumetaxis 
     at the end of Vampire Fleets.  No, the RCES/Regency meeting will not 
     be pleasant.
     
     >>Many of the top worlds of the Regency would be killed of or 
     greviously wounded if ANY Viral infection came in.  Therefore, you can 
     expect a "zero tolerance" attitude from them. (and do you really think 
     that they will trust the promises of a Peacemaker strain of Virus?  
     Wait a few centuries, than ask again...) <<
     
     I would expect that the Regency will take an exterminator's stance 
     toward Virus, Peacemaker or no.  After all, what's to stop a 
     Puppeteer, God or Mother Virus Strain from _pretending_ to be a 
     Peacemaker until it gets good and entrenched in it's "ally's" computer 
     systems and then -- WHAMMO!  Instant holocaust.
     
     There is no physical way to recognize what type of Virus strain you're 
     dealing with.  What it "claims" to be is really irrelevant, unless the 
     RCs develop a way to recognize the unique electromagnetic emanations 
     that come from Peacemaker strains or something.  Even then, the rapid 
     and constant evolution of Virus would eventually allow the more 
     hostile strains to imitate these emanations.
     
     I'm currently running a Regency mercenary campaign, but I'm troubled 
     with the idea of running a campaign in which the goal is to perform 
     the genocide of Virus when some Viral strains are now non-belligerant. 
     But how can one distinguish a hostile from a non-hostile?  Until 
     there's a definite way, it's foolish to trust Virus and I'd have to 
     side with the Regency that Virus needs to be contained or destroyed.
     
     >>They will also stress their democratic nature, guessing (correctly, 
     I suspect) that the Regency sure isn't going to expand the Democratic 
     Reforms to cover low-tech barbarians. <<
     
     and
     
     >>To democracies: "The Regency has learned the lessons of the tragic 
     Collapse.  We have fully reformed our government, to give a vastly 
     greater voice to the people while diminishing the power of the 
     Nobility to a more limited sphere.  By increasing the say of the 
     people without bloodshed or wanton destruction, we have proven 
     ourselves fit to lead Charted Space.  Join us as we rebuild the broken 
     worlds together."<<
     
     Right.  Let's not forget that the Regency itself has become much more 
     democratic.  Reread the stuff in the main rule book on the Regency and 
     you'll see that because of the much smaller area of space the Regency 
     now controls, the need for a strong nobility has decreased.  While 
     nobles continue to exist and hold their vast riches, government has 
     largely fallen to the common man and the electorate.  The Regency is 
     also democratic now, but in a different way than the RCES.  And let's 
     not forget Oriflamme.  The Regency may have a friend in the RCES and 
     the revolution-minded Aubani may have a wolf in sheep's clothing as an 
     ally.
     
     
     >>Domain of Deneb (Imperial): Spinward Marches
                                 Deneb
                                 Corridor
                                 Provence
                                 Trojan Reach
                                 Reft     <<
     
     I think I'd add Gushemege and Dagudashag to this group.  The Regency 
     is going to want a buffer outside Reft to further ensure the safety of 
     those seven-parsec gaps in the Rift.
     
     >>Contested with the Aubaine Republic
                                 Zarushager
                                 Massilia
                                 Delphi    <<
     
     Now _this_ area could make a great location for campaigns in about 
     1210-1300.  Think of the conflicts between two opposed interstellar 
     governments colliding!
     
     >>Aubaine Republic            Daibei
                                 Daispora
                                 Old Expanses
                                 Solomani Rim
                                 Alpha Crucis
     [And expanding rimward all the time...]  <<
     
     What the heck _did_ ever happen to Terra and the Solomani Rim anyway?  
     Does anyone assume that some level of technology or perhaps a pocket 
     empire exists on old Earth?
     
     --Chris

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 404
***************************
